Stephen Knight: Investing in Biotech Solutions

Harlan Krumholz: Welcome to Health & Veritas. I’m Harlan Krumholz.‌

Howard Forman: And I’m Howie Forman. We’re physicians and professors at Yale University who are trying to get closer to the truth about health and healthcare. Our guest today is Dr. Stephen Knight. But first, we always like to start off with a quick hit, and I also have a follow-up question from a listener who wrote in. So Harlan, go ahead and then let me ask that question.‌

Harlan Krumholz: Yeah, yeah. I know we want to spend some time on this listener comment, so we’ll save that for most of this first piece. But I did want to just start off with some good news. Good news, Howie.‌

Howard Forman: We need good news.‌

Harlan Krumholz: Well, we always need good news. Oh my God, we’re going into the election, and people need to hear this on Thursday. There’s so much anxiety and tension in the country, let’s talk about something positive. And across the U.S., I don’t know if you’ve been noticing this, but respiratory illnesses are really hitting a low note, which is really exactly what we want. Look at COVID: the activity’s on the decline, wastewater levels, emergency visits, way, way, way down. CDC’s reporting this. The new variant’s not really causing much concern. The updated vaccines are said to offer solid protection for what’s out there, but again, we’re sort of at this low point. Flu, you can barely find it. Minimal flu activity so far, if you look at the map for CDC, very little. Great time maybe to get your flu shot because we’re at the nadir.‌

Howard Forman: I agree. Yep.‌

Harlan Krumholz: By the way—‌

Howard Forman: I got both my shots.‌

Harlan Krumholz: ... me too. RSV is down, levels are really low. Mycoplasmal pneumonia, a little bit of an uptick among kids. By the way, I heard this from my son that someone in daycare with my grandchild has had an episode like that, but still—generally low. And it’s a moment to sort of opine, what’s going on here? Is it warmer fall weather? Is it increased immunity, public health awareness? Are we just darn lucky right now? But anyway, I just wanted to start off with—‌

Howard Forman: Knock on wood.‌

Harlan Krumholz: ... especially you scare us about a new flu—‌

Howard Forman: I know.‌

Harlan Krumholz: ... this and that. So anyway, it’s time people—‌

Howard Forman: No, no, no, it’s good to hear good news.‌

Harlan Krumholz: I was on a train yesterday and felt less concerned than usual that I was going to catch anything, because all of this, is where we are. So anyway—‌

Howard Forman: I hear you.‌

Harlan Krumholz: ... I wanted to start with that. But let’s get to this letter because we did get something from a listener.‌

Howard Forman: We got a note from a listener about a recent episode where you and I talked about the physician shortage and efforts to ameliorate it with faster tracking of trained international medical graduates, and the listener raised a few points. I don’t know if I’ll get to all of them, but I’ll just summarize them real quick. One, challenged my assertion that medical education is expensive, two, whether there really is a shortage, and even if there is, is it structural or just temporary? And then related to that, whether A.I. is being underestimated in its effect on physician demand and supply, because that might make all the difference and maybe all this worry about the shortage is very, very short-sighted. So I wanted to hear your thoughts on any of those points.‌

Harlan Krumholz: I’ve got thoughts on all. First of all, let me just start with a little gratitude. We always appreciate hearing from listeners and well, it’s a fascinating thing. You know how positive I am about A.I., and I just saw a really remarkable demonstration. So the Yale New Haven system is now going to implement what’s called ambient A.I. I’ve talked about it on the podcast before, this ambient A.I. This company Abridge is the group that Yale’s going with. And we saw a demo where there was a conversation between two people—it was a simulated conversation, as if it were a patient. Someone was interviewing our chief data officer, Lee Schwamm, an accomplished academic who we’re lucky to have at Yale, come down from Boston and is leading these efforts around integrating A.I. into our system, and we’ve had Lee.‌

And the ability to translate common conversation into really clear and advanced medical documentation blew me away, because often when we’re using Alexa or Siri, it doesn’t even hear us or listen to us or the word’s wrong. We dictate, I’m dictating on the iPhone and it’s getting words wrong. The ability for this thing to listen and even slang and all these things and then translate those concepts, we talked to Michael Sherling last week, and he was talking about how the ability to take words in common conversation isn’t easy. It’s not trivial at all, and this system was doing it well. I believe we’re on this moment where there’s some possibility that we may have a physician surplus because what we’re going to be in a position of is force multiplying what physicians are going to be able to accomplish, and what people who are trained as non-physicians are going to be able to do, to do many tasks that right now are landing at the feet of physicians that they don’t need all that medical education to do.‌

Whether that’s pattern recognition, whether it’s documenting, there’s so much time that’s spent by physicians doing things that are clerical in nature that really could be subsumed by other tools that I wonder. Now, of course, the physicians who are doing procedures, that’s a whole other different ballgame with aging population. The need for orthopedic surgeons to do hip and knees, the need for people to be doing technical procedures is maybe where there really will be a crunch, but this A.I. is going to be a real push. Now, that’s why I think there’ll be attention. There will be certain areas where we really will be needing greater capacity, but there will be lots of other time that’s freed up, and we need to be smart about in the future training and so forth. And then I would like us to be able to train more individuals if necessary in order to expand this. But I think it was interesting what this person raised. I think they were wrong to suggest that we didn’t see the connection, I think we do, between—‌

Howard Forman: I think we’ve said it in previous episodes, but I think it was useful for them to just remind us that we talk about A.I., we talk about a physician shortage, and we hadn’t brought it all together in that episode, so it was a good prompt.‌

Harlan Krumholz: Also, importantly, it’ll help us perform better. So the whole profession’s going to change, but I do think there will be sets of areas where physicians are desperately needed that do work that only physicians can do, and we will need to concentrate on closing that gap. But the A.I. is definitely going to help, no question about it.‌

Howard Forman: That’s great. Thanks for answering that.‌

Harlan Krumholz: Yeah, so let’s get onto our interview. Steve Knight is going to be terrific.‌

Howard Forman: Dr. Stephen Knight is the managing partner and president of F-Prime Capital, a venture capital fund that invests predominantly in healthcare and technology firms. It has more than $4.5 billion in assets under management and boasts over 300 portfolio companies. Dr. Knight currently holds and has previously held positions on the board of many healthcare companies, including now publicly listed firms such as Beam Therapeutics, Ironwood Pharmaceuticals, Prime Medicine, and Proteostasis Therapeutics. Before joining F-Prime, he worked at AT&T Bell Labs, consulted for Arthur D. Little, and served as the president of Epix Pharmaceuticals for seven years. He received a bachelor’s in science in biology from Columbia University.‌

He also attended Yale Medical School, where he simultaneously obtained an MBA from the Yale School of Management even before we had an MD/MBA program. And what is more to mention at this time is he has been teaching one of the most highly successful courses at the School of Management, covering the life science industry and beyond. So first of all, I just want to welcome you to the podcast. It’s great to have you. Very often our guests know Harlan better than me or me better than Harlan. In this case, you know each of us in completely independent ways, and it’s just a pleasure to have you here. And I wanted to do what I do when I have you talk to my students and just give us a brief summary of how you made these pivots early in your career to go from medicine into consulting and then eventually moving into the field that you’re in right now.‌

Stephen Knight: Well, thanks for having me. I was an English major until the very end, and at some point I had an epiphany that I wanted to go into science. And it was probably related to the fact that my dad was a physicist, and I don’t know if my foray into English was more a function of a reaction or love, but at some point I decided, “This writing is really hard, and it doesn’t come easy. I love it when it works well, but it’s really hard.” So I went back towards the end and got interested in neuroscience and at the time people were talking about A.I., it was a different era, and I got involved in fiddling around simulating neurons and went to NIH and then to Bell Labs. I quickly was self-aware enough to realize as I was trying to teach myself all this math that there was just no way for me to compete in this kind of field that seemed like it was magic to me, so I thought, “I’ll go to medical school,” and that’s when I applied.‌

But in any event, one of the things, I started—my research had changed, and I changed it over to doing clinical A.I., which I thought was really cool and amazing, even though it was just rule-based with some Bayesian statistics embedded in it. And so that’s how I ended up over at SOM. Some friend of mine at Yorkside Pizza said, “There’s a business there.” Now, I didn’t even know what a business was, and he was wrong about that. But I did go over to the business school, and there was, somehow someone told me to talk to the admissions director, and it was a guy named Silverman, I think, and he said, “Why don’t you just apply?” And so I really liked being in a university. When I was there, I was thrown into just a different group of people, and it was just kind of a different world that it opened up. It was also the same time Genentech was just born, so this whole idea of biotech did not exist.‌

Now, once I started reading up on biotech, something just clicked and I saw this, you could understand how to create medicines, and so that was something that I just wanted to get involved in. There wasn’t a lot then. I mean where I’m sitting right now, in Kendall Square in Cambridge, Massachusetts, was a wasteland of old textile buildings at that time, and now it’s indisputably the mecca of biotech and the whole world. There’s just an extraordinary amount of activity up here and everywhere. I don’t mean to be so parochial. Not everything revolves around Cambridge, Massachusetts. As you know, I’m a big fan of New Haven.‌

Howard Forman: Yes.‌

Stephen Knight: So anyway, I’d never left the country either, so a consulting firm offered me to move to Europe and start consulting, and I did that. Now, in the back of my mind, I always thought I was going to do an internship, and I would recommend to anybody who is in medical school to do the internship—then. When I did it, which was six years later when I found out it was the last year I could possibly do it without having to take all the boards all over again, you have gaps in your knowledge after six years. But I did that and that was, again, a rewarding experience.‌

Harlan Krumholz: By the way, I’m just curious, I know I’ve heard from you, how do you apply for residency six years after you graduate from medical school? How does that work?‌

Howard Forman: With great difficulty.‌

Harlan Krumholz: How did you get them to consider your application? What did you actually do to get into it?‌

Stephen Knight: Look at me. I’m now old, so that was, even six years after medical school was a long time ago, but I don’t remember it being that strange. I think I had to get some recommendations or something, and then I filled out applications and then went on interviews. I think that some of this—‌

Harlan Krumholz: That probably would’ve been unusual to have taken a six-year gap.‌

Stephen Knight: It was very unusual, and I can tell you the first few days were terrifying.‌

Howard Forman: Probably for the patients too.‌

Stephen Knight: The wonderful thing, I have some wonderful stories from that time. I’m sure if they had known, they would’ve been terrified. But no, it was great.‌

Harlan Krumholz: Well, I would say the most important thing in internship is common sense, more than knowledge.‌

Stephen Knight: Well, that was the other thing is that you learned at that point the five things that are coming in the ER and you just get a sense of things. But I think most importantly, and this is actually, it sounds awfully sentimental, but I think it’s absolutely true and I’ve seen this in the best of the companies that we’ve started, the appreciation for what someone is going through, a patient in these most vulnerable of times, and the fact that they are trusting you and in fact, in many times are depending on you to guide them through this period, it is an incredibly motivating experience.‌

I decided after that year that patients around the world would only rejoice if I was to leave clinical care and go back to what I was doing, which was developing drugs. And so then I ran this biotech company for a while, and then my wife and I founded a company based a little bit on the research that I had done matching patients to clinical trials. So it was a thin A.I. system, and that’s when I saw venture, because we raised a bunch of money, and that’s when I decided that’s what I wanted to do, and that was 23 years ago.‌

Harlan Krumholz: So I wonder, just as a juncture here, what is venture capital?‌

Stephen Knight: The idea is that you’re putting money in that’s extremely risky and hoping that you get more money back because you aren’t able to continue to do it if no one gives you money.‌

Harlan Krumholz: But what’s the difference between going to you and going to a bank for a loan?‌

Stephen Knight: Well, the loan wants the money back no matter what. We take the loss, so I think that—‌

Harlan Krumholz: It’s higher risk and they’re putting forth their ideas, right? But they’re not putting up collateral that would, for example, be—‌

Stephen Knight: No, there is no collateral. And I think that the other big difference, and I was going to get to that, and this really depends on the firm, but we’re a group that likes to start companies. So it’s not just money and a team and we give them money and walk away, it’s often that we’re starting a company with an academic group, we’re working with them. We’re trying to figure out, does this make sense? How do we do this? Sometimes deciding some of the initial experiments because if it’s not going to work out, you’d ideally like to know that earlier rather than later, refining some of the clinical indications when we’re developing a biotech company.‌

Harlan Krumholz: Steve, you have had amazing wins over the course of your career, ones that have both returned back to your investors and to society and to patients. Just wonder if you could just give us an example of one of your favorites?‌

Stephen Knight: I would say that one of them, and I think that this is a great example of how incremental science and approvals of drugs lead to further approval. So one of our very first investments was in a company called FoldRx. There’s a chemist from Scripps, Jeff Kelly, who showed up in our offices with an idea for a drug for familial amyloidosis polyneuropathy. Now, that doesn’t mean anything to anybody, but it’s a horrible, horrible disease, the neurological form. These patients, there’s about 10,000, maybe a little bit more in the world. Five thousand are in Portugal, and if you probably follow Portuguese traders and missionaries in the 15th and 16th century, you know where the others are because you carry one gene, you get the disease. And you end up in your forties and fifties first initially having pain in your hands and your feet, and then you have other vague kind of symptoms. Eventually you are paralyzed and then you die young.‌

There are a bunch of known mutations—this is one of them—and Jeff had an easy way, a small molecule that he had developed. Because the protein called TTR falls apart, it’s in flux. It spends more time as instead of four chunks of identical protein stuck together, it’s only one, and in those patients you get amyloid accumulating in your periphery. And so this was one of these companies where we started, we ended up having to do a Phase 0 study where we just studied the patients because we didn’t even know what the progression of the disease was.‌

Harlan, you’re a clinical trial specialist. We ended up guessing on the outcomes in the Phase 2 study, and there was one patient on ITT analysis who made the difference between hitting statistical significance or not. It was approved in Europe, it wasn’t approved in the U.S., and it ended up, patients from the U.S. would go over to the Vatican to get the drug. It makes a big difference. I think it sells over... Pfizer bought the company because it was going to be a long road after we didn’t hit the trial mark, but it now, as you know, is used for TTR cardiomyopathy, which is a much bigger population. I think 4% of—‌

Harlan Krumholz: That came from that early science. I didn’t realize that.‌

Stephen Knight: Yeah. And so that was a time at which they wanted to develop the cardiac first, but the cardiac would have been impossible. That was an example of where someone in our office, Robert, who you know, who’s an MR physicist, said, “Look, you’re not going to get the answers that you need,” and so we steered them to neurological disease because it was more tractable. But that gave us confidence. Of course, Alnylam now has an RNAi drug for this. We will have a gene editing drug eventually, and this is a horrible, horrible disease that will be based on individual modalities eventually cured, and those patients are in a much different place than they were five years ago. And that’s the difference between—‌

Harlan Krumholz: But without your investment, this doesn’t go forward.‌

Stephen Knight: ... right. And I would say maybe circling back, there’s another company we started, Beam, and it’s part of a gene editing universe. And of course, you know, I think most of your listeners know about CRISPR. If I could have gone back to myself when I was a medical student in New Haven in 1985 and say, “In your lifetime, here’s what’s going to happen. We are going to take a disease like sickle cell disease”—which is happening—“and here’s how we’re going to cure it. We’re going to take someone’s bone marrow out. We’re going to treat those cells with a molecular machine that is going to edit their genome. That will then be put back in them and they will be cured for life,” now, that I wouldn’t have even been able to comprehend, but it would have really excited me, and that’s probably the little glimmer that I at least saw back then. But that is happening.‌

Of course, those patients, right now it’s a pretty arduous treatment because of the conditioning that they have to go through, but that will change. Those are the things, and this is maybe the big thing. I think that now we’re at the point where we are going from, a lot of times, science to engineering in medicine. We understand not all diseases. Most of this wonderful thing that we called life is still a black box, but in the certain circumstances and certain diseases, we are starting to understand the blueprint of the disease. And once you understand that, you can develop machines, medicine to actually cure those diseases, and this is kind of an extraordinary point in human history. For me, and I use this kind of bumper-sticker tagline in that class, Howie, for me, medicine is to the 21st century what physics was to the 20th century.‌

It is just where the most exciting things are going to be happening. And so it’s a privilege, I overuse that word, but it is indeed one to be a part of it, to be a part of the people who, or to be working with people who want to cure diseases, and I think to be able to offer patients something different and getting remarkably better—my hope. Even though in the years ahead, even though we didn’t get into this, I wish we did, I was going to ask you, I’m terribly worried about clinical medicine and what’s going to happen with clinical medicine. We didn’t talk about the kind of work we do on that side, but that’s a separate matter outside of life sciences. We do a lot in healthcare delivery and IT, but I am very worried about patients getting the care and there’s lots of issues there. So maybe that’s for a different podcast if I haven’t bored your listeners too much—‌

Howard Forman: You have not bored our listeners.‌

Stephen Knight: … and I can get invited back.‌

Howard Forman: But I do want to ask you as a parting question and a quick pivot, what’s your favorite place in New Haven, having been here both as a faculty member, a student, as a parent? What’s your favorite place in New Haven?‌

Harlan Krumholz: I know his favorite place. Let me see if I’m right. I’m going to just—‌

Stephen Knight: Well, I’ll tell you, because there’s a restaurant I like. Is that where you were going to go, Howard?‌

Howard Forman: Yeah.‌

Stephen Knight: As an old person, I do really love the Union League. It’s an indulgence, so I will say that. It’s an indulgence of great food and good wine. But I would say my favorite thing is actually the walk at exactly around six o’clock from over at SOM all the way through my little zigzag path through Woolsey Hall, and then going and listening to the bell tower there. I actually think it’s the most beautiful campus in the country. That’s probably my favorite kind of thing in New Haven outside of what Harlan was alluding to, which is my sybaritic tendencies.‌

Harlan Krumholz: I’ll just give one final kudos as we say goodbye to Steve, Howie, which is I have never seen anyone who’s not full-time faculty invest to the degree he does to the students at Yale. He is, of course, a faculty member—he teaches a class but isn’t a full-time faculty—and the degree to which he invests in individuals, the way he nurtures students, he rivals you, Howie.‌

Howard Forman: Well, no, he and I first bonded over this because he hired one of my students back in 2008. Yeah, 2008, Eric Golden.‌

Harlan Krumholz: It’s a really great thing to see that kind of mentorship and willingness to meet with people morning or night when you’re here. You’re here a lot in New Haven, and we’re lucky to have you.‌

Howard Forman: We really are.‌

Stephen Knight: Well, I feel lucky to be there and lucky to be here with all of you.‌

Howard Forman: We appreciate it.‌

Harlan Krumholz: Well, that was a great interview, and again—‌

Howard Forman: It was fun.‌

Harlan Krumholz: ... Steve can do so many different things. He’s of course a leader in venture capital but such a great teacher and professor, coming and teaching class. But let’s get to one of my favorite parts, the Howie Forman part of the podcast. What’s on your mind this week?‌

Howard Forman: Oh yeah, I know. We’ve made it to the end of October with the presidential election just five days away from when this gets released, and we have touched on but not done much more about health policy as it relates to the election, so I wanted to just raise a few thoughts and then hear from you, quite frankly. So first of all, I have not, and let me ask you this first one. Have you read anything from the primary source of Project 2025, from the actual document Project 2025?‌

Harlan Krumholz: I have not. Can you educate me a little bit?‌

Howard Forman: I hadn’t done that at all until this week.‌

Harlan Krumholz: And just for listeners, we think everyone knows this, but what is Project 2025?‌

Howard Forman: So this was the Heritage Foundation, which is a well-known, previously well-respected think tank, it basically originated with the Reagan administration. It’s been a conservative think tank, and they brought together members primarily of prior GOP administrations, many Trump administration members, to come up with a working plan so that if Trump is elected—‌

Harlan Krumholz: Including pre-Trump, when you say GOP administrations?‌

Howard Forman: There are people in there that have worked in previous administrations as well. Right. The document itself is a very lengthy document and it has an awful lot in it, and there’s a health section in it, and I went right to the health section this week for the first time after having heard about it for a long time because this is supposed to be the work plan if the administration takes over. Now, in fairness, President Trump has said he has not read it, and he has said that he is not committed to it, but when you read it, you realize that there’s no question this is the working plan because all the people in it are looking to be in the Trump administration and this is their vision, and it does align with the platform in many ways, to the extent there is a platform.‌

I was honestly horrified by this, not the least of which is that it’s a clear and transparent effort to dramatically reduce access to reproductive healthcare, but a lot more as well as that. It’s really a blueprint to dramatically change access to abortion, and it doesn’t do it just in one paragraph or another paragraph, it’s systematic. It’s through the FDA. It’s through the CDC. It’s through Medicare. It’s through the way insurance is structured. It’s a very committed document to that one theme. Secondly, I’ll just give you three quick things and I’ll let you speak about this. This idea of “Make America Healthy Again” has become a theme of the Trump administration, particularly since they’ve joined forces with what was the RFK Jr. campaign. And I will say at once, it is a great idea. We should all want to make America healthy again. But it’s also frightening when you see who is behind it and how overly simplistic their assertions and solutions.‌

On the one hand, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with shining a light on how our diets may be killing us, how we lean heavily on prescription drug solutions, and how we are a system that rewards solutions to sickness and not very much one that rewards maintaining wellness. I’m all in on that one. But the literal demonization of the CDC and the FDA and the many specific individuals involved with each is extremely unhelpful, and the evidence that is being used to support many of the strongest recommendations is weak at best.‌

And finally, I just want to say the word that RFK Jr. is seemingly the linchpin to many of the health and healthcare changes in the Trump administration is disturbing, as he has a well-documented history of being anti-vaccine, as well as overly supportive of alternative therapies, even when we don’t have a lot of evidence about this. So let me just as a caveat, listeners might ask why I’m not talking about the Harris-Walz agenda, and I too feel like we should have made time to cover some key elements, but it would be like comparing a Category 5 hurricane to a breeze at the beach, and one deserves attention and the other not so much right now.‌

Harlan Krumholz: Well, I am surprised you’re not weighing in on what they will do to Obamacare. How many times did the Trump administration try to kill it? McCain’s famous thumbs down, actually—‌

Howard Forman: And they still want to, they just don’t use the term “Kill it” anymore.‌

Harlan Krumholz: And again, you didn’t even touch on that, but that may be in some way—‌

Howard Forman: No, 100%.‌

Harlan Krumholz: ... one of the most important things and in the debate, he couldn’t articulate really what the plan was about Obamacare. But here’s the thing for me, Howie. I’m really concerned about this. You know at the Madison Square Garden rally, Trump said, regarding RFK Jr., quote, “I’m going to let him go wild on health. I’m going to let him go wild on the food. I’m going to let him go wild on medicines.” On the Joe Rogan show, he said that RFK Jr. could “focus on health—you can do whatever you want.” I thought this was really striking, shocking.‌

Now, I don’t know whether RFK Jr. could be confirmed by the Senate, for example, as FDA commissioner, but if he’s in the White House with authority, it doesn’t matter because HHS is directly accountable to the President. And depending on, even without a Senate confirmation, if he’s getting authority within the organization. Let me just read to you what RFK Jr. tweeted because we can end with this, but people should pay attention. People who care about health and healthcare should pay attention. And neither of us have said that the FDA is perfect, and the FDA will say that they’re not perfect.‌

Howard Forman: That’s right.‌

Harlan Krumholz: But let me just tell you that FDA is extraordinary, and we’re fortunate in this country to have an agency like this. And I know personally the professionals within the FDA, and these are people who are true public servants who are deeply dedicated, and I will defend what they’re trying to accomplish there. There’s lots of different pressures, but it’s a remarkable agency. Here’s what he said, “FDA’s war on public health is about to end. This includes its aggressive suppression of psychedelics, peptides, stem cells, raw milk, hyperbaric therapies, chelating compounds, ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, vitamins, clean foods, sunshine, exercise, nutraceuticals and anything else that advances human health that can’t be patented by Pharma.”‌

He said, “Their war on public health is about to vote because they are requiring evidence and so forth for these things.” He says, “If you work for the FDA and are part of this corrupt system, I have two messages for you.” This is RFK Jr., who Trump has said, “I’m going to put them in charge and let him do whatever he wants.” He said, “If you work for the FDA,” here are the messages: “Preserve your records” and “Pack your bags.”‌

Howard Forman: I’m glad you got the quote in because I had it in originally and deleted it because it was long, but I’m glad you got it in because it is insane. It’s beyond. The FDA, as you said, imperfect, but across administrations, even including the Trump administration—‌

Harlan Krumholz: The potential for harm here is—and this is like the EPA, by the way, in our environment and the climate. So yes, this isn’t a political show, but this is alarming, and if you care about health, you will pay attention. Even if they’re not telling us all the details of what they’re going to do, this is an important message that’s coming out just before the election.‌

Howard Forman: It’s crystal clear.‌

Harlan Krumholz: If you care about health, pay attention to this. And we’ll put the links in the notes for the podcast so you can see that in, for example, Madison Square Garden, that’s the video of him so you can see for yourself. And with that note, isn’t this our last episode before the election, Howie? Right?‌

Howard Forman: It is. That’s right. That’s why I’m saying this is going to drop in five days later.‌

Harlan Krumholz: We can’t tell you what to do, but we can urge you to be—‌

Howard Forman: Informed.‌

Harlan Krumholz: ... conscientious citizens and make good choices. You’ve been listening to Health & Veritas. I’m Harlan Krumholz.‌

Howard Forman: And I’m Howie Forman. So how did we do? To give us your feedback or to keep the conversation going, email us at health.veritas@yale.edu or follow us on any of the social media.‌

Harlan Krumholz: We’re physicians and professors at Yale and we’re trying to get closer to the truth, like Howard said. And what we’re telling you, I’m just plussing down on what we did today.‌

Howard Forman: No, that’s true. Good point.‌

Harlan Krumholz: I’m going back to what Howie says at the beginning of the podcast and say, “We care,” and we really do care about health, and those conversations we’re having about the politics really, really reflect that. So just getting back to the beginning, also, as you can see, we very much want to hear your feedback. We can’t always incorporate it into the show, but please share with us what your thoughts are. Comment on us, rate us—it helps other people find us.‌

Howard Forman: Yes. If you have questions about the MBA for Executives program at the Yale School of Management, reach out via email for more information or check out our website at som.yale.edu/EMBA.‌

Harlan Krumholz: Thanks to our researchers, Ines Gilles and Sophia Stumpf, and our producer, Miranda Shafer. They are amazing! And we’re so grateful to have them.‌

Howard Forman: I agree 100%.‌

Harlan Krumholz: Talk to you soon, Howie.‌

Howard Forman: Thanks very much, Harlan. I’ll talk to you soon.‌