Radical Health

Teresa Chahine (TC):

Welcome to Impact and Innovation. I'm Teresa Chahine and I'm inviting you inside my classroom at Yale School of Management as we grapple with questions on social entrepreneurship and impact.

TC:

Welcome back everyone. It's season 10, episode four, and I'm here with Ivalyse Andino, the founder and CEO of Radical Health. Welcome.

Ivalyse Andino (IA):

Thank you so much.

TC:

Can you say your name right, because saying it wrong, how does your grandma say it?

IA:

Well, it's both languages, so, Ivalyse or Evalyse in English. My mom would call me, Ivalyse and

TC:

Okay, so I'm okay calling you. Ivalyse. Absolutely. But I want our listeners to know that your grandma would've called you.

IA:

Yes.

TC:

We're very happy to have you here today, and I really appreciate you coming up from New York to talk to my students and me, and I'm so excited to debrief with you on camera and think about 10 years of radical health. And also, we were just chatting before the camera started rolling about how this is the 10th season of this podcast because I do kind of two seasons in an academic year because each semester is its own season. So I'm also reflecting what have I learned in the past 10 seasons? How has my teaching changed and the way I think about the world? And I want to hear how your thinking and application of the radical health concept has evolved in 10 years. So congrats on your 10 year anniversary, and let's start by telling our listeners about radical health and what you do,

IA:

And congrats on the 10 years. I think it's a milestone. Let's

Take a moment. It's a moment to sit in to name. 10 years ago. I don't know that I could see this moment. So it's really beautiful that we get to share that. And so yeah, radical health, we believe that no one should help alone, and we get to ensure that we build community through health, through restorative circle practice. So our community is a place where people come in from different walks of life, they get to have conversations in circle practices, we call them circles, conversations about different things that are impacting their health. So it could be healthcare navigation, it could be around pregnancy or substance use disorder. And that all happens on an online community where they also get tools and tips and tricks to navigate the healthcare system, know their rights, know what questions to ask, and really full wraparound support for individuals. We also believe that the next generation of healthcare workers and health workforce really is going to be inspired by lived experience and restorative practices. So we also do trainings and fellowships that support existing healthcare workers to upskill, to make sure that there's a culturally appropriate lens applied, that we're applying restorative practices, which really just mean that we see each other, we hear each other, and then we also give those tools to folks who just have lived experiences and maybe have never worked in healthcare before, but want to.

TC:

I've heard about restorative practices and circles in the context of non-health, non-physical healing, like after war or conflict or just, that's the context I've heard it in. This is the first time I hear it. In the context of health. How did you make that leap yourself? How did it all start?

IA:

Well, I think it started from all the things that I wish I had. And I think that many of us value, if we look at Vivek Murphy's final prescription for America, this idea of loneliness and isolation, we all are craving connection. And so for me, many years ago, I was going through a bunch of lived experiences at the time. I mean, before that, early on my mom was diagnosed with cancer. I talk a lot about this publicly, but I was a young person trying to navigate her support, her insurance, and not really knowing how to do that. Years later, I found myself pregnant with my son and had an emergency C-section. And a lot of those same feelings also came up of what am I work in healthcare? I should know better, but this feeling of loneliness and isolation, and it was actually introduced to me through the criminal justice and the prison justice world.

TC:

That's the context I've heard it.

IA:

And so I was trained in restorative practice by Aura in the south side of Chicago, and they were using circles for folks who had come home from prison to support others, to keep people out of jail, to reduce gun violence. And so they were having sitting in person conversations, and it was used a lot in the education system. And I just wondered what would happen if we sat down as humans and talked about our own health, what it feels like, what we're afraid of, what we wish could be different, what would happen if we could do that with providers to hear their side and really radically dreaming of, imagine a world where we have administrators and payers and patients and providers. What would it look like if we could all just see each other? And

TC:

Why don't we already, when you're describing all this, I'm like, wait, why isn't it already like that?

IA:

Well,

TC:

Which is the best indicator when a startup idea is a strong one when people are like, of course that's what we need. Why isn't it already like that? Of course.

IA:

Yeah. And I think it was one of the things that I just wanted, I wanted so badly, so desperately that at that time I didn't have the words or the business or the framework. I just knew that there should never be a moment when we are experiencing anything around our health. And so whether it's a personal journey or even the administration of building a business, why would we do that alone? So I got to learn this practice really fortunate to be mentored by great folks like Sujata, bga, ra, and they taught me everything they knew and just they were doing circles in really rough places. So in prisons with people who were impacted by sexual assault, really difficult situations. So I was like, we can talk about diabetes together. This is light work to do. And really fortunate to be mentored and taught, but then also for the community that was eager and open to start these circles and have these conversations that really laid the framework and the groundwork for what radical health is today.

TC:

That's so interesting that you were just going about living your life and stumbled upon this thing that I don't even know when you were being mentored, if it was just like a hobby or something you were doing on the side, but then you became so passionate about it and saw the need and opportunity in the public health system to actually turn it into a thing. And now it's a 10-year-old business, and I've noticed a lot of really successful entrepreneurs are designing for what they would've wanted, where they are, an example of their typical customer, and then that your lived experience helps make it a success.

IA:

Yes, I think that was it. And my background, I had worked in pharmaceutical marketing and peer-to-peer education, and then it was really early in the health tech space. So around 2012, I had worked for the first app prescribing telehealth company where physicians were prescribing apps. I got to do that two times at two different companies. And I remember there were testimonies in Congress about digital health as a therapeutic. It was a really early time, and I remember being really grieved and frustrated and angry that we were building these great things, but it was never for communities like mine or considering folks who couldn't necessarily afford an iPhone at the time

TC:

Yea.

IA:

Or a smartphone. And I think a lot, Natalie Molina, Nino has a book called Leapfrog, leapfrog and talks a lot about the ideas for starting businesses really come from the things that enrage you, the things that you want to punch. And that is usually a sign, something should be different, and then having the courage and the opportunities to do something about it.

TC:

What is the concept of leapfrog?

IA:

So it's basically hacks. Hacks for founders, ways to leap hack or leapfrog,

TC:

Leapfrog over something

IA:

Else over. The challenge is that many women entrepreneurs find many women of color who are starting their businesses, things that we wouldn't be told or known or know about. And so really great tricks and tips to find what might be a new business, tips to raise capital, how to use crowdfunding, social capital, and different hacks. It's really great.

TC:

Cool. So when you first wanted to start this, I'm curious about how and why you decided to do as a for-profit business. Because I totally get the idea of circles and sitting around with the community, talking about health so that you don't have to health alone. I love that tagline, but I'm not clear on how then you can run it as a business instead of a nonprofit or some kind of, tell me more about how and why you made that decision.

IA:

Yeah. My decision to start as a for-profit, I guess similarly was really shaped by what I had seen. So I'd been around a lot of nonprofit entities, some national, some local, and what I saw over and over again was a fight for funding. So if you had two nonprofits that had similar entities, they were all going to the same funders and really just trying to beat each other out on who was going to get the grant funding this year. And then I saw really, I would call it a strain, a labor strain on the folks who were working at these nonprofits. So you have executive directors who have the lived experience, who figure out how to fundraise, and then if they got sick, if they needed to leave or chose to leave, they put all their work into this nonprofit and the nonprofit either ended or they would go to another and left with nothing.

TC:

There was no asset that they could,

IA:

No asset, and nothing that actually could carry on outside of that frame. And also the nonprofits were really determined by what they could do by the funding. So funding shifted from food to housing, and ironically, we're in a very similar economic situation now when philanthropic funding shuts, it shuts down and we all feel the ripple effects, and most importantly, the communities who are receiving those benefits really are impacted. So I saw a lot of that and I was just frustrated in the same way and decided that if I was going to do something specifically in healthcare and in health tech, which is what ultimately we started out as and what we are today as a health tech company, it was going to be a for-profit. I knew that. I also hadn't seen any CEOs that looked like me. I now thank goodness the world is so different and really changing, but there were no very few women CEOs that I saw and very limited black women CEOs at that time. So it was important for me to do it because I needed to,

TC:

Yea

IA:

Also to have an asset, to have something that was of value that my intellectual property that you own, yes, was mine and the folks who were creating this. And then the ownership too, to also be able to discern what funding would be for me, who I would take funding from and what we would do. And so I didn't have many options then. So I was like, do I do this as an LLC? But my goal originally was to raise venture capital. So I knew that we needed to have shares in order to raise venture. And my only other option I had considered a co-op, but you needed two founders. And I dunno if you know this, but

TC:

I did not know that

IA:

To start a co-op,

TC:

But I guess by definition, co-op means more than one person.

IA:

And I couldn't find a co-founder when I started this one day, we'll share all the emails of me reaching out would be my co-founder. So the co-op was off the table. So I was left with just a corporate structure, and I stumbled across some website, couldn't tell you where

TC:

Probably B Labs,

IA:

Well, I think it was an ex-colleague from another company who had left. And on LinkedIn I was stalking as we all do sometimes. And I clicked through and at the bottom of this website it said company name, a public benefit corporation, and I'm a naturally curious person, so I might say nosy. And I was like, well, what is that? And then I googled a public benefit corps. What is that? Yes, I saw that it wasn't, it was the B Corp circle, but it was actually a formation, like a formal entity that you could incorporate as. And so then I guess there wasn't much social media back then. I had a lot of free time to follow that rabbit hole, and there weren't many attorneys that could file as a public benefit court at the time. Most folks didn't know what it was. But I got to the bottom of it and realized this is something that would give me the best of both worlds, will allow me to own the own the company have shares in it, shares and equity with employees, but also embed in the fabric of the company's formation and DNA, this public good to change healthcare as we know it.

TC:

My understanding of a public benefit corporation is that it makes you legally obliged to take into consideration the economic, social and environmental outcomes of your work, not just the economic, and that it was created and advocated by this nonprofit called B Labs, which is also behind that B core certification that most people are more familiar with the Black Circle around it. And they're basically on a mission to transform capitalism and saying that business can and should be and is a force for social good, which your business clearly is. So I love that you're making that point of demonstrating how business can be a force for social good and how you can be very grassroots and community rooted and still be a for-profit business. Something you said earlier is really also important to call out and reemphasize, which is that you wanted to build an asset and have something that you own, but also not be shutting down when the donors went away.

And in class, you talked about this book winner Takes All, which talks about how the dark side of philanthropy and charity, which is that it's money given by those with a lot of power to those with less power, and so they get to shape their agenda and you didn't want to be donor driven. One thing that's really remarkable about your business is that you basically are running the show by just using your own earned revenue to pay for your activities. And we'll talk a little bit more about that as our conversation unfolds. But another thing that stood out about what you said is that at first you were thinking about raising venture capital, which I've seen in some cases just becomes a different kind of not being able to determine your own agenda, kind of like the flip side of being donor driven. Because then once you get external investors, they're basically your boss and they're pushing you to make decisions that will allow you to grow fast and provide some kind of huge amount of financial return to you and them. And so that doesn't always fit in line with your mission. So talk about how and why you went that direction, or it sounds like you then changed your mind about that.

IA:

Yes. When I started, I was going to raise venture capital, and that's the only way that I knew of building a company, of making money so that I could pay myself and pay a team. And very quickly, and I love the youth because sometimes you just don't know and it really saves you, your ignorance is bliss in that way. So I was knocking on every door at every conference, every happy hour, like, oh, I'm looking to raise capital.

TC:

You were like 30 years old. Yeah,

IA:

I'm looking to raise capital, a lot of winging it. And what I didn't know then, I didn't know the facts that we, I guess now and thankfully they're changing a bit, but of how hard it would be as a woman, how hard it would be as a woman of color to raise money, I didn't know. And so in the best way though, I think those nos forced me to find another pathway to sustainability. And so what I did know for my career was I know how to sell. I know how to listen, I know how to advise. I'm a strategist at heart. So when we couldn't get any capital in through venture, I just went and was selling our services. I would sell anything that I could, consulting a workshop, circles, whatever you want I have if you have a budget, was really my early strategy. And I think thank goodness for that because it allowed me, instead of building kind of theoretically building what I think might be a good thing, using venture to build the infrastructure and then race to market or figure out a fast way to market, it really forced me to be in market, grow in market, iterate and pivot and switch, and do that really proximate to the people who we want to serve with our work and proximate to the people who have paid and are paying today for the work that we do.

TC:

Yeah, it's incredible how funders and venture capitalists will give you millions of dollars without you having that. I mean, they always want evidence that someone will pay for it and that there's a customer, but it's also, like you said, sometimes hypothetical, we're investing in you to create a product that we're all on the same page someone will want and pay for in the future, but you kind of just had to prove it from the beginning and you couldn't build anything that someone wasn't paying for because you didn't have money. And so you just had to start with customers right away, start offering whatever services you could and then evolve it over time. So what I understood from what you shared with my students and me today is that you started hosting these circles that who was paying for them at first, I'm guessing not the individual community members inside them, but someone was paying for them.

IA:

So originally started a circles that I was doing for free. I asked nonprofit orgs, if you can just provide food, I will bring everything else and we'll do circles. They really were supposed to be user input sessions.

TC:

Like a focus group?

IA:

A focus group, yeah, exactly. To see what is it that people who have never engaged with health tech before, what would they want? What would they need? What are the challenges that they're

TC:

Wrestling with? Oh, I see. So actually what you started off as a research project to see what am I going to code and build became like, oh, this itself is what people want, so I'm just going to build this.

IA:

Right? I mean, again, I look back, I'm like, wow, what a great journey, because I'm still surprised at it. But really ultimately, I was looking to build a tech solution that was going to be built at the time, 10 years ago, our development process was very slow, manual, and expensive. So if I was going to raise the million dollars that I needed at that time to build what would've been anywhere between $200,000 to develop a prototype, I needed to make sure that what I was building was actually what the community wanted. And again, I'm working with community members who are in areas with high rates of poverty, high rates of impact by the justice system folks who are recently immigrated. And so I was like, we're just going to talk and see. And so it turns out that that was actually very sticky.

We worked with a few nonprofits for free, and then very quickly the request was, can you please come back? That was so valuable for, we worked with one music program and they're like, we teach the cello, but our parents who are all either undocumented or recently immigrated, they all come to us and our cello teachers about where do they go to see a doctor or dentist and we don't know. And so it was very clear that our work was needed by these entities. And then the Department of Education was working on a specific problem in New York City where again, addressing the social determinants of health. And at the time we weren't using those words, but it was looking at a subset of students who were overaged and undergrade. So what was happening there, what was needed? And what came up consistently was all of the support around healthcare that whether it was the family, the student, mental health supports just plain healthcare navigation was needed, but the school system didn't really have the capacity or the skill to do that.

And so with them and the Obama Foundation, we were tapped to come in and do our circles for these communities. And so that really was the ground work that told us both what we were going to build in the tech side, which we made it, we built it, but ultimately gave us the groundwork to see how valuable these circles are and the value to community to the folks who hire us, but then to the healthcare system and ways that all of these things can all of these systems, education, community and healthcare can all work together.

TC:

What did you build on the tech side? It sounds like your offering ended up being more of gathering people less and less of an app or something.

IA:

Yeah. So today, many iterations later, when we first started, we had this thing called Radical relay, which was a text message, know your rights app. So you can text ask questions, and you would ask a question, my doctor doesn't have any appointments. What do I do to get an appointment sooner? And we'd be like, call and be put on a waiting list. We did that specifically for maternal health, so people who are pregnant, what do you need to know about your rights? And then during COVID, we expanded. So we serviced so many people, what do I do? Do I wash my bananas before I eat them? And so supporting them just through COVID, but then also where do you get a vaccine? How do you schedule an appointment supporting them? Can I have a partner with me while I'm giving birth? Those are some of the things we worked on. And so many iterations later. We now have an online community that both has that communal component, so people still chatting with each other. There's an online circle. So our circles are available online digitally in what looks like a, it's zoom, but in circle format. Oh, wow. And then the best part of this new community that we've built, this version is our training and our education program. So we have a training program and a fellowship program, but there's emos for people to learn healthcare navigation, how to find an FQHC, what questions?

TC:

Federally qualified health center

IA:

Yes, nationally available so that if you are uninsured or can't afford care, no matter where you are in the US you can go and get care there and they'll find something within a sliding scale, but something affordable for you to pay to get care.

TC:

So you started off doing the circles as research to build tech, then the circles themselves became the offering, and then you added the training and the fellowship. How did that come up? Because so far everything in your journey just came up by doing, it was all just organic. So tell us about the training and the fellowship.

IA:

So we had had many requests for training along the way. So while we're doing these circles,

TC:

So again, it's just like what people wanted,

IA:

It's what people wanted. The circles, we've done circles nationally. So if you had called us many years ago for circles, we were there doing them. But ironic had done a podcast probably in 2018 and the Tacoma Public Health Department called and they said, we need this training right now. We have to do this. We want to train our entire team and community members and

TC:

To do the circles themselves,

IA:

To do the circles themselves and to learn how to do restorative health circles.

TC:

So it's not like one day you're like, okay, I've done the circles, now I'm going to do the training. It was on demand. Yes.

IA:

And if I'm honest, it was towards the end of the year, the call probably came in maybe September. We're looking at our budget, we're like, well, at this point we're just going to have to do this training. We'll see what happens. Similarly, I also spoke with my mentor and I asked her, I said, do I do a training? Am I equipped to do a training? And this is still following a lot of this indigenous practice of recognizing that what we do in this restorative practice is again, eons of learnings and tradition passed down and she was in full support. She said, absolutely no one knows this work better than you. How do you, especially in the case of healthcare, I had been doing it for many years and with her kind of just blessing and encouragement and a budget that needed to be filled, we said yes. And it actually was an amazing experience for us. It happened to have been on indigenous land in Tacoma. There were native representation who showed up, and it actually, inside of a public health department,

TC:

You're training public servants.

TC:

Getting paid to do it. I mean,

IA:

It was an incredible experience having been there. And then that kind of is what set us off on a training journey. So we were able to really tighten up our training offerings so that whether it's a public health department, a clinical department who wants to train their clinicians on how to do circles or how to have restorative practice embedded into the work that they're doing, we've gotten it. We do it pretty well. And my understanding, I think it's really only folks in the country who do this. Yeah,

TC:

I find this really interesting because it's a way of scaling your impact and having ripple effects. You're not going to be able to do circles with every person in this country, but the different departments of health could. And it's also a key to financial viability where what I love about your business is that it has this cross-subsidization model, which wasn't your plan from the beginning. It's not like I'm going to set out to do this hybrid model, but we do see this a lot in social enterprise where when you're trying to make something viable circles and communities that can't afford them, and then suddenly there's demand for something that someone's willing to pay a lot for trainings for government departments of health or city departments of health, and then one can cross-subsidize the other. So what I heard from you today in class as you were speaking, is that now the trainings have become a way not only to increase your impact and respond to a need by government workers, which is super important, but also for you to have that profit margin to then pay for the circles.

And I think we see this model a lot in social enterprise, but sometimes the social entrepreneur will register for profit and nonprofit where one supports the other, but with you, it's this one integrated business so that you don't rely on external funding so that you can make decisions and you can be nimble and agile and pivot as you need. So I thought that was really remarkable. And it's also really interesting that the innovation itself wasn't the circle. You didn't invent this. People have been doing it for millennia. The innovation was bringing it to the US healthcare system in a way that it had not yet been brought. Somehow at some point, someone brought it to the US Justice system. They were doing this in prisons and with returning citizens who were formerly incarcerated. But your idea, your innovation was bringing it to the US healthcare system.

And not just the idea, but the dedication and the know-how to implement it to sell it. Right? And then of course, that qualifies you to train others to do it because you're doing it. And so it makes a lot of sense that then you were able to package it as a training so that others can do it as well. And that's what social innovators do. And I hope that one day when you're a granny and everyone's like, oh yeah, circles, that's what, it's just like how I get my teeth cleaned twice a year or go to my annual checkup. Yeah, I'm part of these circles. And it's like it wasn't always like that. I hope that's what happens.

IA:

Could you imagine, which I'm going to get teary eyed. I joke that I cry every day. This is my time.

TC:

This is your daily cry.

IA:

To hear that. I think I would hope I would, early on when I started radical health, I would be asked, what's more important profit or impact? And I would always struggle and be like, well, the answer is always going to be impact, but why are we having, I don't see that that needs to be the tension

TC:

Because you're doing both. There's no trade off between your profit and impact

IA:

At all.

TC:

You're being valued for the impact you create

IA:

At all. And yeah, I think about now as my, what is the end game we talked about earlier, and I would hope I would, so much has been done in this space in the industry to recognize that not everyone's experiences are equal. Our journeys are different. And I would hope that we can get to a place where the connection that we all need and crave and are desperately missing that can be present, that our health doesn't need to be segmented into what we do just at a hospital system. That it is a part of our everyday life and fabric. Because in reality, that is our reality. It just so happens that we have to go into a billable system in order to make it part of the practice. But I really dream would be that this is so common that we don't even know, or we forget the origin, but we just sit in circles and we get to talk and we chat.

And that our journey through whatever challenge it might be or opportunity, but in our quest for health, that it gets to be done with people, with folks who share our same lived experience, with folks who have different experiences. And more than anything, we see a humanity in both the way we receive it, but also in the practice. And I think that's really kind of the next 10 is how do we transform healthcare delivery to have restorative practices? How do we look at it from every angle in care delivery, but administration, all of the ways in which her claims are processed. There's so much to be done here. And I spend my time just really being a futurist of, we have a lot of great things ahead of us. I really believe it. And today's an optimist day.

TC:

And that circles back, no pun intended, the four levels of change. I always end up bringing it back to this. It's a framework created by Ashoka, which is an organization that supports social entrepreneurs. And they talk about the four levels of impact as the first one is direct service like you holding a circle. The second one is scaled direct service, like you finding a way to hold tons of circles. The third one is systems change, which is when you're training people in the public health system to hold circles themselves. And the fourth one is framework change where the US healthcare system transforms to be less clinical and more about this, about community, about restorative circles, about practicing health together. That is a shift in framework and mindset. And so yes, absolutely the first 10 years you figured out the direct service, the skilled service and the systems change. And the next 10 years I hope, will be about shifting the framework.

IA:

Yes. I can't wait. Could you imagine?

TC:

Yes, I absolutely can imagine.

And I look forward to witnessing it and seeing it happen and hopefully being part of it in any way I can. And I also will circle back this time, the pun is intended to something you said at the beginning of the episode, you mentioned Vek Murphy, who's the former surgeon general of the US who wrote a report slash manifesto slash blog post, whatever you want to call it, as he was handing over his role and he called it Prescription for America. And he also spoke to his ancestral heritage and how the village that his parents grew up in India and the hometown that he grew up in the US both had such different social fabric decades ago because people kept their doors open, they looked out for each other, they faced life, they faced health as a community. And we have lost that as a country and many other countries as well.

I know in Lebanon, his description reminded me of my village and my parents' village when I was little. And it's not like that anymore. Now people are pretty isolated. They're navigating life alone. That's just the world we live in. And even as a medical doctor, his prescription for America was, we need community. We need to find ways to restore that social fabric and get rid of that loneliness in isolation, which is our number one threat. And he's now traveling around the country with the support of the Phil Knight Foundation, talking to people like you and identifying best practices to scale and to take to that next level. So I definitely see a connection there, and I hope you're able to connect and work on that framework change together. So any closing thoughts in terms of what you want to leave our listeners with? I love that you already gave them two reading recommendations. One is the Leapfrog book, one is The Prescription for America. What else? What other thoughts do you want to leave us with on this 10 year anniversary that we're celebrating.

IA:

I hope we get a podcast.

TC:

Yeah, absolutely.

IA:

I'm going to need an anniversary special.

I think a lot. I would leave with the advice that I received from a mentor, which was the work that I was doing back then. And I think today still, he would often say, you're not wrong in what you are building and dreaming about. You're just early. And I think for many social entrepreneurs, we can see things that oftentimes the market or investors, and it doesn't make it wrong just because we don't have the investment or the backing or the support. You just sometimes are early. And I know for us and myself at Radical Health, when we think about even our model, we're just waiting for the world to catch up. And maybe it's the reimbursement models or the payment models to catch up to value what we know is needed. And we're doing it now. We're going to continue to do it. We'll continue to find ways to fund this work. But for many of these great ideas and life-changing ideas, you just happen to be a little early. And sometimes it's just staying in the pocket until the time is right and the rest of the world catches up.

TC:

That is great advice for our listeners, whether it's in the job you already have, in the household you're part of or out there in the world, creating new ideas, whatever is the vision that you see for the future for a better way, things can be. Just start practicing it in any way, shape or form you can. And that is how the world catches up when someone plants the seed and starts building a new way of doing, and then people follow. Right. Thank you for doing that and for radical health and everything that you've built. Ivalyse, and for celebrating your tenure anniversary with us. Congratulations.

IA:

Thank you. This is my greatest joy. It's brought so much life and energy, both personally, but into this work. And so it's really nice to do a little retrospective and share a milestone for both of us. So thank you. Thank you.

TC:

I am Teresa Chahine, and you've been listening to Impact and Innovation. Subscribe to Stay Tuned and follow us at Teresa Chahine and SOM Ventures. Special thanks to the broadcast Center at Yale School of Management.